Sign up

Be a part of one now.

Conversations. Discuss what you love. In real-time.

chris dixon started a conversation 1 year ago
Was it a good decision for Twitter to change their TOS to disallow lots of 3rd party apps? Would a better strategy have been to let people experiment and charge 30% a la Apple?
Summarize the best points of this conversation. Click here to create a conversation summary.
  • 0 votes
    My immediate reaction is that it's easier for Apple to do what it does because the control almost all of the platform (hardware, os, commerce, etc)
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    Logistically, Twitter could certainly have just said if you want to connect to our service and you make money you pay us 30%... why not?
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon it's a good question...I suspect that they feel it might have hurt overall growth in the beginning to do it that way (paywall would have similar effects on devs that it does on users) so perhaps there was a useful network effect in letting 3rd parties do the lifting and get more users on but now that value is less?

    I also wonder about the firehouse. I understand that they charge a hefty rate for access to the fire hose data (capped at 50%) 3rd party clients might have started getting something that looked a lot like the firehose data for free?
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    *firehose
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon It's not clear to me Twitter has a clear path and thus moments like this make it obvious internal ambiguities are quickly manifesting into external problems.
  • 0 votes
    but without an established business model, why not let the 100s of 3rd party developers figure one out and then charge rent. facebook did this very successfully with zynga.
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon What developers want is *clarity* ... a 30% tax would be so simple and easily for folks to grok.
  • 0 votes
    re predictability, agree. i wrote a blog post about that here http://cdixon.or...velopers
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon It's a plausible approach. The other issue is it's obvious there's a reverse land grab in motion
  • 0 votes
    @Brian Norgard you're point on internal ambiguities is well taken ... that's making a lot of sense to me.

    Does anyone else find it interesting that Dick gets all the press when it comes to revenue despite them hiring Adam Bain to be responsible for it?
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon I also wonder why the CEO didn't deliver this message to the thousands of developers. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
  • 0 votes
    also, i think the tech world people vastly overestimate the actual number of active users twitter has. i don't know anyone outside of tech/media who uses it except to occasionally check in on what ashton kutcher is babbling about.
  • 0 votes
    the 3rd party devs could have helped take it more mainstream.
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon Very few people have something to promote or distribute.
  • 0 votes
    @Brian Norgard news and media have taken to it for getting the word out. @Liz Mullen is a tweet fiend when it comes to talking about NFL and the stories she is working on
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    Along with the internal ambiguities, there is also a twitter experience that they are trying to build. I think the play might be to have a better all around user experience which is uniform for all users. This would really make it easier for people unfamiliar with twitter and all of it's lovely idiosyncrasies to get involved. Then they only allow 3rd party apps which build on, and add to their current offerings. Insead of simply replacing them in a different method.
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon I love Twitter but don't find it all that social anymore. It's far better than my RSS reader and at times quite comical but it doesn't drive a meaningful human connection for me today.
  • 0 votes
    what did you call it earlier today @Brian Norgard ? they want to be the social news network
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    In the end developers want:

    1. to build cool shit
    2. to know the rules of the game
    3. to build cool shit
  • 0 votes
    @Clint Ivy An information distribution network.
  • 0 votes
    maybe they want to control the access point because they plan on charging media cos for large scale access? dunno, it's very opaque to me
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon I actually think 3rd party devs do the opposite. If I am more of a mainstream guy and see most people not using official twitter clients, it appears more confusing to me. It makes it tougher to get started because there is more you have to understand. A unified front is easier to understand for people outside of tech/media
  • 0 votes
    The 'confusion' argument doesn't really make all that much sense to me. The ecosystem got in front of them (which was both good and bad for them) and they quickly realized owning these distributions end points were valuable. So they took control. It was purely an economic decision on their part
  • 0 votes
    @Adam Kuebler that assumes twitter has nailed the UX. not sure they have yet. personally i think the ultimate machiavellian strategy is to wait until 3rd party apps nail UX and monetization and THEN knee cap them. (not that I ethically advocate machiavellian strategies, but just saying that seems to me the optimal machiavllian one).
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon then why start clamping down now? Have the identified the dev with "It"
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon The pressure to monetize in the board room must be over the top.
  • 0 votes
    @Brian Norgard especially with the massive amounts of investment they've been taking
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon The new team (sans, Ev @Jason Goldman , etc) must be feeling the pressure to show numbers especially when the window to go public appears to be open. My bet is all of these policy changes are connected to a core need to show >$250MM in top line.
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon In terms of nailing the UI the iPad app is amazing. The mobile app is above average IMO.
  • 0 votes
    @Brian Norgard the ipad app is great...did they build that internally or was it devved by their aqcui-hire of tweetie?
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    @Clint Ivy Not sure. Either way, that application is gorgeous.
  • 0 votes
    @Brian Norgard and you gave me grief about paneled UX....don't think I forgot that one sir! ;-)
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    @Clint Ivy Web UI v. iPad UI different game my friend. But you know I love you.
  • 0 votes
    does taking control of the access point indicate that Twitter doesn't plan to do advertising instream?

    Seems to me if they were going to do instream advertising then who controls the access point isn't that important but if the advertising is going to be around the stream rather than in it well then...
    Clint Ivy  •  Punt  •  Delete Comment  •  Mention Clint  •  +1
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon and @Brian Norgard you definitely make a lot of sense, and have opened up my views on this a little bit, I'm not saying it is the right strategy or timing, but I might see some reasoning from an outsiders view. I's a college student in Daytona Beach, Fl. There is maybe 50 people at my school on Twitter, hardly any of them active. From my experience mainstream people view twitter as very confusing. Most join with the official twitter clients, then look into other options (UberTwitter etc). But when Tweetdeck is just as viable of an option as twitter.com, it ads another mental barrier to the equation, just another thing they have to figure out about the twitter ecosystem. And the more confusion there is, the more it takes to figure out how the whole thing works, the less opportunity you have to become more mainstream. Again, don't know if their move was the best way to go about making it easier for new users to get on board, but this is simply my observation from a Twitter deprived part of the country.
  • 0 votes
    @Clint Ivy very interesting thought Clint, all of the advertising thus far is around the stream rather than in it.
  • 0 votes
    30% of zero is still zero. For Twitter, they only way to enforce things like the #dickbar is to be in control of the UI. Personally, I would have waited a bit and see how others tried monetizing, then take the best ideas and shut everyone else out. I worry that analytics companies are next. Maybe one will survive my aquisition
  • 0 votes
    I say, if you're going to be a dictator, be a charismatic one, oh, and be right! When Apple lays down a mandate, developers usually moan and the media has a field day. In the end, we usually end up with some really top of the line apps and Apple's stock goes up. I'm not sure we can say either about Twitters move.
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon I think Twitter has a simple 'order of operations' error. They seem to be trying random things to monetize and hope to end up with a business model.
  • 0 votes
    @Brian Norgard The "confusion" argument is the most indefensible line of BS they could have come up with. It might work with journalists, but anyone of even moderate intelligence who's ever used one of the leading 3rd party clients will tell you that this is nonsense. In fact, I would argue that the Twitter UI/UX causes more confusion than the other way around.

    IMO the Twitter user base is split in to two distinct user groups:

    1) Power Users. This group uses it as a business tool of some sort (customer acquisition/competitive intelligence/etc) and/or as an interaction platform. These users overwhelmingly use 3rd party clients because those clients are the only way you can process Twitter efficiently. Twitter.com for this group is a complete non-starter.

    2) Lean-Back Users: This group tends to follow high-profile celebrities, personal interests, and/or industry leaders. They consume and surf Twitter very similarly to what they do with Television or the Web in general. This is the group for which the development of a "channel" solution would be very smart: http://uniquevis...ter-twit

    IMO the smartest thing Twitter could do is to recognize these two basic user groups and figure out how to best monetize each. Ironically, what they'll realize is that the "consistent experience" they claim to be protecting is actually the thing that will handcuff product development and ultimately constrain it's ability to monetize.
  • 0 votes
    I haven't really followed this thread, but I don't think twitter had any choice but to take control of most of the user touch points. For a while there, Twitter could have been a 'headless' consumer product, but I know of few who have pulled that off. Facebook, though they continually speak of themselves as a platform, has always had a strong grip on the end user experience. It is just a shame Twitter sort of stumbled towards this conclusion with everyone in tow...
  • 0 votes
    @Jeff Pester jeff, thought your analysis was really interesting. quoted it here http://cdixon.po...ck-users
  • 0 votes
    @Adam Kuebler i buy the consistency argument to a degree... but most casual users would gravitate to the official apps anyway. the people who would go to the trouble of seeking out other apps clearly have a need that it isn't fulfilled by twitter's official apps.
  • 0 votes
    I've been pondering doing something new and different that would use Twitter in part, but these moves have me really concerned. I don't want to invest a lot of effort creating something that Twitter will just blow away. A known tax would alleviate the uncertainty. Although I wouldn't need funding for initial phases, I also worry that this risk would make fundraising significantly more difficult. Any thoughts on that @chris dixon ?
  • 0 votes
    My point on confusion is not that the designed UI is confusing, I agree with @Jeff Pester that 3rd party clients are often times easier to use than official twitter clients. But that misses my point, a point hard to understand by people who are inside the web industry and 'get' everything going on with twitter. The overall concept of twitter becomes more confusing with all of these 3rd party apps doing the same thing twitter clients do. I think a lot of the discussion is really just about change. Yes right now you can divide the group of twitter users basically into two groups currently, and until now twitter has directed the growth of their platform at all.

    At this point they realized they need to make some changes. They need to direct the growth a little bit more in order to attract more users both in the two categories and in categories that haven't been created yet.

    Was this a rapid change and maybe a bit heavy-handed? Yes. The biggest reason being @Rocky Agrawal 's last point. But twitter will not forever be divided into those two groups and it will have to be able to guide the growth of it's product more. When the only thing you have to offer is a fire hose, you can't do that.
  • 0 votes
    Thinking more on this. My point stands unless there never will be a middle of the road market from mainstream america. Facebook blew up the place by bringing in the "USA Today" market. Will twitter be able to do that? Thinking about it, thier move is what they would have to do in order to make that happen. But even with this move I'm not sure they can reach that market on second thought.
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon Thanks Chris, much appreciated.
  • 0 votes
    @Brian Norgard @chris dixon I would add that developers want consistency/stability in a platform. No one likes getting the rug pulled out from under them, and Twitter does that a lot.
  • 0 votes
    @Brian Norgard @chris dixon Once again, a conversation that Brian Norgard invites me in to turns in to a blog post: http://uniquevis...witter-c Thanks Brian!
  • 0 votes
    @Jeff Pester Thanks for summarizing your thoughts in the post. Helpful in getting a good grasp in the issue.
  • 0 votes
    @chris dixon Your remark re # of active twitter users fully applies to facebook. The recent slew of stats is laughable: "500 mln users", "no, wait, now it's 600 mln users", "500 mln pageviews per month" = 500 mln people signing on and checking out the site for the first time. I suspect many never come back given how ugly the design and experience is, not to mention the dev documentation.

    And to stay on topic: my take is you are spot on, they should've let "a 1000 flowers bloom", the only way to nurture innovation. Only a shadow of what's possible ever hatches in a corporate environment (facebook, again + MS and even Google -- it tries to stimulate idea creation for sure, but execution kills most).
  • What do you think?

Company

Created by

ns-prod-frontend, production, master:761 ping