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Today's Namesake Conversation is w/
@Jason Goldman
(COO & co-founder of The Obvious Corporation & former VP Product for Twitter). We'll be getting deep into product development, the evolution of Twitter & experience design. Product people take note.
Summarize the best points of this conversation.
Click here to create a conversation summary.
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What time are we expecting it to start?
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@Drew D'Agostino I am as well. This is going to be *really* interesting. Can't wait to learn from someone who has created a product that has touched millions of people. Plus, @Jason Goldman is a good dude.
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@Jason Goldman We're in a garage in Hollywood Hills. Love that you guys are starting in a humble manner.
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@Jason Goldman Welcome. Looking forward to the conversation and really excited to leverage the product you used to run in hosting the first ever conference taking place on Twitter next week... cool stuff
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@Brian Norgard yes, in the sense that Obvious was actually where I got hired to work before Twitter.
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Obvious was the company that incubated Twitter in 2006-2007 and I was hired to work on product there.
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Is there a sense that you guys have to do something huge?
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@Brian Norgard yup - I was at Blogger in 2002, we were acquired by Google in 2003 and I stayed there til 2006.
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Some big news lately with Biz stepping down from Twitter to help re-start Obvious Corp: http://blogs.for...ous-corp
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Do you watch what Google has done with blogger, or only focused on the future?
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@Dan Gould well, I think we like doing things that make the world a better place which is a biggish mission. But it's not an external pressure.
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How much of building a product is creating what's in your head and how much is it based on the feedback you are getting?
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That's true whether you're talking about scaling teams or systems or product identity. every order of magnitude change brings a different set of problems
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@Jason Goldman even in our product-centered world today? I can make lots of things scale... that no one will use
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@Jason Goldman the premise of making "systems that help people work together to improve the world" is a grand goal - any domains you think you'll start in?
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@Jason Goldman I believe you, @Evan Williams and the rest of the product team were some of the first product people to really pickup on the mantra of 'making complicated things simple' … Few people remember, this product belief was not widely held in 2004. How did Blogger impact what you built at Twitter in the very early days.
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So, you might have the right technical scaling solution for 10M users but something will break when you have 100M. And more importantly as a PM, your product design will need to scale to work for those difference audience sizes.
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Please RT this if you all have a chance, this Namesake Conversation is about to get really interesting.
http://twitter.c...86043905 -
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@Jason Goldman what was it like working for the product team at obvious before twitter caught any traction? were other projects getting the same kind of love that had the teams energized and hopeful?
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@Brian Norgard Blogger was a pretty big influence for me in the sense that I wanted to avoid some of the product mistakes. I actually wrote a blog post on the now defunct obvious blog about how at blogger we introduced this setting called ENABLE FLOAT ALIGNMENT
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It was an example of how, in order to meet a 1% case, we introduced a user setting because "Why not, we'll just put it in settings"
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I really didn't want to repeat that thinking with B
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@Jason Goldman Do you feel you and @Evan Williams were at the vanguard of the 'make things simple' movement?
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So we wanted to keep settings simple, keep the model as simple as possible. The first project I worked on at Twitter was redefining the Follow model which had a crazy number of verbs originally.
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@Jason Goldman I remember when Twitter came out, a lot of people didn't get it including myself. Now, it's something I use multiple times a day. What do you think contributed to your success of selling a product that people didn't know they need yet?
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@Jason Goldman Was there ever a product vision at Twitter or did you simply build in an evolutionary manner? It feels like you guys play it loose and I want to get into that 'flow' idea.
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question re: the role of experience design when you are in MVP mode. how much thought do you put into the experience when churning out an MVP? or do you table it for later, expecting to focus on that once the guts of the product are working?
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@Kenny Ma Well, I think a lot of people still don't get it. When you talk to people about the experience of getting it, there's usually an emphantic moment. They follow one key account or find someone they really like. Making that work at billion user scale is still the main challenge.
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@Jason Goldman When I say product vision I simply mean "grand plan" as opposed to tinkering everyday with new twists and turns.
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@Brian Norgard There was a vision but it evolved. I remember when I first heard about Twitter from biz ev and jack it was prpoposed as a "mobile social network." It took us a long time to realize it was something else.
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@Jason Lankow Goldman Obviously one needs to pay attention to detail when developing a product. How much detail did you pay attention to when it came to developing Twitter? Did you focus on that the most or just a little bit?
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@Jason Goldman What's the deal with 140 characters? I would use Twitter all the time if I didn't have to edit just to fit the limit. Can't you just add ellipsis. Up it to 200 characters at least.
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@Jason Goldman One thing I noticed about Twitter is you never let the media paint your service into the corner. You sort of let them media describe the service through their eyes. Was this by design?
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@Brian Norgard I don't think it was just one realization. But the wildfires in southern cali were big. the fire departments were using twitter to coordinate and spread info. That was clearly not "social" in the sense of "Friends"
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@Brian Norgard I think we got lucky with the media response to Twitter in that a huge number of media and news folks became evangelists for the product. and they helped define what it's potential could be
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If you see an interesting use case (like the fires/events), how quickly should you jump on that vs staying with the original vision?
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@Brian Norgard Yeah, I think event stuff played a big role and still does. So if you look at the world cup or the super bowl or stevenotes. Those have all played big events in how people understand twitter.
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@Jason Goldman Once when we spoke you really emphasized an idea that stuck with me. You said, "Assume you don't know anything and keep questioning your product assumptions." How did this notion manifest into what is now Twitter and your current gig?
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@Dan Gould so we didn't really change the product very much for that use case. but it did change the way we started talking about the vision and purpose of the product. that was more important.
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@Brian Norgard right, so with Twitter we had to question a lot of assumptions because of the way the product evolved ...
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So for example, at one point there was an IM interface
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@Jason Goldman I remember those days. @Robert Walter Scoble used to use it all the time, if I remember correctly.
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@Jason Goldman Would you mind RTing this? Want to get more cool people in this convo to hear your stories! >> http://twitter.c...76234497
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and that seemed liked the most important thing because 1) users would tell us that the only reason they used the product was because of its IM support and 2) we had an assumption that twitter should be a universal message bug and allow statuses to be received on any medium.
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so we labored for years (really years) to keep this fragile IM interface up before ultimately killing it. And it turns out it wasn't that important. At least it wasn't the X Factor for Twitters growth and success.
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So that's a concrete version of "be willing to slaughter the sacred cows"
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How big was SMS for you? What was your experience getting the short code setup / managing it?
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@Jason Goldman So much product design is incremental these days. How do designers and developers get out of this rut. Can a product win that's only 15% better than the next company?
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@Daniel Zarick SMS was really huge for us in terms of how we thought about the product. It was the default way to use the product at the beginning.
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Do you think there's still room for SMS-centric products todau?
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@Daniel Zarick however, it was never the dominant use case (maybe in the very first month). Getting the shortcodes was a nightmare. Absolute nightmare
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@Jason Goldman Can we talk about the initial seeding phase for the product. I remember hearing from someone that Twitter had less than 10K users in the first year. Is that correct?
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At that time you needed to go thru SMS aggregators who all had various ways to price. And we also were running access internationally which turned out to be economically unviable.
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@Jason Goldman Did you ever have any ultra-frustrated moments, where you were just like "screw this, I give up, let's start something else"? I feel like overcoming those kind of moments is one of the hardest parts of the startup world.
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@Sara Davidson I'm also making a publicly viewable calendar of conversations like this so people can know ahead of time when they are.
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@Jason Goldman what was behind the reason to kill the IM interface? was it a technical challenge? or did you realize that it no longer follows the product vision?
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@Brian Norgard Mmm. That could be true. I don't remember how many users there were when I started working at Obvious in 2007. But the seeding was really based on real life social graph in the sense that Ev and Biz and Jack and Noah all had friends in SF who also worked in tech who they wanted to use the product.
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Please RT this link if you have one minute, it would be greatly appreciated friends.
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@Brian Norgard Haha, I love that. I feel you just really, solidly need that faith in an idea, to keep pushing forward no matter what. You guys are inspiring.
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@Alex Priest Ha yes. As late as 2010 :) There's always frustration that makes you wanna give up. Even when it's demonstrably successful.
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@Jason Goldman The first wave of product feedback from the press was not all that positive. How did you deal with product criticism internally?
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@Jason Goldman was ruby to blame for the stability issues in those early days as was the popular thinking? or did it have more to do with not having the right design in infrastructure?
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How Twitter got to its critical mass? Where did it get its first 1,000 of users? 100,000? I know that celebrities committed a lot to that, but how did you get there?
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@Brian Norgard well, I think there was a bit of the "all press is good press" mentality. It was kind of amazing people were talking about it at all given how small it was. So it seemed really encouraging in that respect. It was like "Well, jeez, there must be something here if it pisses people off so much." But moreover, we were true believers at that point and felt that it was only a matter of time until it could be shown useful to a wider audience.
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@Olexandr Prokhorenko It was really built off of our friends from the web 1.0 scene (bloggers and folks in tech) and then people in traditional media. It was much later that the celebs got into it (there were some early adopters like Shaq who played a big role)
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@Jason Goldman Love this, ""Well, jeez, there must be something here if it pisses people off so much."
Great products are divisive. -
@Jason Goldman when did you first get the sense of how important and large Twitter would become? Was there a progression from, "Maybe this will be interesting" to "Hmmm, this is catching on" to "Holy crap this is HUGE"?
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@Jason Goldman What have you seen as the biggest hurdle of taking Twitter more mainstream as a product?
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@Jason Goldman Speaking of press, Shortmail has been getting some good press lately (http://shortmail.com). Have you seen it? What do you think about their platform?
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@Isaac Fain No it wasn't a case that Ruby was the arch villain in Twitter's scaling issues. We architected Twitter as a CMS when it needed to be a dispatch service. That was a fundamental problem that took a long time to overcome.
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@Olexandr Prokhorenko Great question, I think. And to follow up on that, @Jason Goldman what did you guys internally consider success? What metrics were you looking at?
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I should also say that I'm not an engineer so my technical read on things is highly suspect.
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@Jason Goldman do you guys have any lessons learned from twitter that your going to be applying to new efforts at obvious as you applied lessons learned from blogger to twitter?
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@Jason Goldman For all the product people out there, what was the key learning in developing Twitter?
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@Jason Goldman Will the new Obvious be solving a specific problem or build a team who can tackle issues thrown at them?
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@Scott Magoon So for me a big one was the NASA Mars Rover accounts. Having robots in space using Twitter in the first person was unbelievable to me. I'm also a failed astronomer so that had special resonance.
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@Jason Goldman The short code ecosystem hasn't changed at all since then. Hopefully we (Twilio) will have something to say about that tomorrow, but overall it's still fairly painful.
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@Eddy Recio mmm, no. But if your problem is that no one knows about your product than it's almost always better than not.
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What philosophy drove you to allow others to design their own UI's on the twitter API (tweetdeck, et al). Were you ever concerned that these third parties would damage your brand or steal attention/traffic?
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Did you always have a sense that Twitter will conquer the world? When I first heard about it, I thought it will be more like Blogger, one of microblogging plaforms.
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@Doreen Bloch This was an area where we weren't well instrumented to be honest. We didn't have good dashboards on usage and its one of the big mistakes. So we were looking at readily available metrics like tweets and user counts.
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@Brian Norgard I still come back to "don't pretend you have it all figured out." Allow for surprises in both the product and how you think about the company.
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@Jason Goldman yeah, the Mars rovers, that's when you know you've made it! I loved those little guys.
You have 1.3M followers on Twitter. Let's get them in here >> http://nmsk.co/nokssz -
@Jason Goldman Let's talk about the modern Twitter product for a moment. Did you ever think there could possibly be 2 Twitter experiences: the consummate content producer and the laid back consumption only customer. Knowing that now, how would you evolved the product differently if at all.
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Did features 3rd party clients (like TweetDeck) introduce ever affect your internal product focus?
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@Brian Norgard Yeah, this is well phrased. I think for a long time we underserved the pure consumption use case and there's still more work to be done in making the product make sense to people who aren't interested in being content producers.
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@Jesse Bouman TweetDeck in particular I always saw as serving a specific usecase for the heavy information consumer. So it was like "ok good, that case is covered, we don't need to do the same thing."
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@Jason Goldman Garyvee recently put up a video saying that the @reply model of where replies show up in certain streams is confusing. Do you think that people don't get it or do they even need to understand those nuances?
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@Brian Norgard I think it's really good. In particular, it shows real leadership from Google's UI and UX teams which is something new for their efforts in this area. I think it will do well.
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@Jason Lankow Goldman It's interesting, in light of your comment on Twitter being designed as CMS that accounts are still referred to popularly as pages or social media profiles.
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@Brian Norgard I am more skeptical of the Circles model. I'm not sure how well average users will do at sorting folks in that way. But the product works without that.
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@Jason Goldman People aren't moving their graph unless it's delivering more value (even if it's Google / sick address book integration).
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Do you see Google+ as mix of Fb and Twitter , with something new?
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I wish Google would have recognized all of the work that I have done so far in setting up my Google Contacts but I have to start over with Circles.
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@David A Martin I've heard / expect they'll do something to use the gobs of relationship data they have on you to make that easier.
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@David A Martin Just wait. AI in Gmail is coming to circles soon. They were smart not to launch with it frankly.
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@Jason Goldman Zuckerberg said friend lists failed because no one wanted to curate lists. Did Twitter have similar results? Or do you consider Twitter lists a success?
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@Jason Goldman there have been a lot of talk about curation. Do you think it's a real problem for Twitter? or are people essentially curating their own feed by choosing who to follow so there's no need for any third party curation apps?
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@Jesse Bouman No I don't consider lists as implemented a success. I think zuck is probably right. But I think Google+ strengths are outside of Circles. The UX/UI and integration across Google's properties; both of those things are new for the company.
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@Jason Goldman Some people have stated Google+ is a flagrant attempt to thwart FB's stronghold in the social graph...
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@Kenny Ma Well, at a high level I tend to think there's more that could be done (in terms of producing a high quality experience) thru curation as opposed to algorithmic generation. So, I think getting folks to curated experiences would be a great way to make them find content they love.
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The real challenge for Google is to tempt users away from Facebook and Twitter. If they're smart, they'll find a way/negotiate a way of being an aggregator and allowing G+ to be a way of communicating in all three places.
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As a freelance designer, I struggle explaining how useful Twitter really is for discovery and marketing. Facebook is much more top of mind for my clients and doesn't need an explanation.
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@Jason Goldman I think "discovery" is a huge problem and will only get bigger. What do you think about services like Hunch?
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@Jason Goldman Where do you see the consumer Internet going? Are you mobile first these days? Do you see a specific movement like the 'live' Web taking hold? What is *next* for the consumer?
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@Steve De Long Yeah, I guess this question along with the "what's next" question" point to the same thing. Discovery is still a rich area of development. There's a lot more to do in connecting people with stuff they'll love. Stuff they're not searching for.
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@Jason Goldman What are your plans with Obvious? I (like a lot of other people I imagine) filled in the form to get involved, but would be interested to see how that might play out.
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@Jason Goldman How is Obvious Corp structured? Are you actively hiring people? Staying small? Buying small projects?
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@Brian Norgard I do think Mobile needs to be more of the focus than desktop. And ultimately, I'm really interested in what's beyond mobile.
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@Jason Goldman Agreed. And I think it applies within services like Namesake even as well as externally. I'm really having fun with Flipboard, Flud, and Pulse simply because of the discovery features they've built to engage users.
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Namesake suggestion - Moderator should be able to bubble up questions to interviewee.
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What are the tops 3 pieces of advice you would give to product leads at companies?
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@Brian Norgard I get made fun of a lot by my cofounders. But there's no reason to think that mobile computing stops with a small square of computer we carry in our pockets. It will continue to evolve and be more pervasive.
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@Kenny Ma It's not just curation, but also context. I want information and the ability to assess where the information comes from simultaneously. Lists and Circles attempt this, but aren't there yet. And replies are far from the right answer without identity and perspective included.
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@Jason Goldman So this might be too broad of a question, but how does an engineer, like me, go about honing their product dev skills? Any pointers you can give..
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@Jason Goldman Anytime you're in Los Angeles you should come meet all the Namesake geeks. We're always messing around with ideas like this.
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On the Obvious questions. So structurally, we're a corporation, Ev is our CEO. We're going to develop some projects of our own and we're hiring engineers to do that. (http://obvious.com/jobs). We're not being coy on the project front ... we're just getting started.
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@Jason Goldman Any framework for how you think about what type of projects to pursue, other than Cyborgs? You mentioned mobile as one.
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@Nimish Parmar Good tech leads can project manage (keep the schedule) which is a key skill in Product Management. So that's a way to get started. And you're the one coding so you can also start exploring features on your own time.
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I should probably know this, but how did you come up with the name for The Obvious Corporation?
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@Stephen R. Fox well put. If someone posted pictures about an event, another person tweet about the event, and someone else blogged about it, there should be a way to link it all together and organize them in an easy to consume way. Context is important.
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@Jason Goldman 1. Are you looking for local staff, or a network of people to work with? 2. Are you actively looking for industries that are ripe for disruption? I may have something potentially very exciting that I'd be interested to talk to you about.
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@Ian McAllister yeah, the real answer (we're not building cyborgs) is to think of systems that help make better humans. Systems that create a positive change in the world by allowing people to see new perspectives, share their own experiences, understand their collaborative strength.
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@Jason Goldman can you expand on mobile not being limited to smartphones? tablets, vehicles, etc.? what is the mobile use case you see
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@Jason Goldman There's so much energy in the market right now ... what you just mentioned is right in your sweet spot and I am not at all surprised about the mission.
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@David A Martin We'd been using it since 2006 (when Ev bought Odeo back and incubated Twitter). It seems to fit because for the three of us to work together again seems obvious.
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@Jason Goldman Some random questions for you. Do you think there will be a few dominant graphs (FB/Twitter) or a variety?
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@Timothy Meade well, the 20+ years in the future case would be the ability to access the internet without having to pull out a separate device. Like in your glasses.
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@Brian Norgard It'll be a power law where there are very few graphs that have all the active people. But there will be many many niches that serve specific needs. I'm not a big believer in the one product to rule them all.
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@Jason Goldman sure, but a little closer for a timeframe? I think the biggest changes will be in the next few years. (same as looking at my G2 smartphone and comparing it to the Zaurus I had in 2002 and seeing that everybody has one of these things now)
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I fully expect to have millions of tiny computers running through my body... you can think of that as post-mobile
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@Jason Goldman We've been talking about wearable and embeddable tech (both displays and access) for years.
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Hopefully they can improve my typing ability.. or make it unneccessary.
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@Brian Norgard @Andrew Skotzko @Jason Goldman This is excellent ! I produce the weekly Global Product Management Talk on twitter with an expert speaker and preposted questions http://prodmgmttalk.com - this is a much better platform for discussing in depth product issues and solves the sticky issue of capturing the content transcript - how do I bring all of the participants over from twitter?
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Don't forget connected TV also. There's no reason why this 50" device is dumper than my cell phone.
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@Jelena Milosevic We tend to be pretty visually driven. When someone comes up with a good mock and a good name that has a lot of weight. Names really matter.
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@Jason Goldman re: better humans and sharing perspectives. What helped me do both (maybe) was living in different countries (Australia, England, Japan). Wonder if there's a way to let people spend a day in the life of someone in another culture. Will think about this some more...
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@Jason Goldman back to Google+ -- does it weaken Twitter or enrich it? There's only so much attention to go around and Twitter's sweet spot is quick broadcasting. Is Google inadvertently encroaching on that?
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@Ian McAllister so this was actually one of the ideas we had early in Twitter. that because it worked over sms and features phones were common even in rural africa, that if we could get everyone signed up you'd be able to experience more of the world
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@Scott Hurff well, I don't think it's a zero sum game, but it would seem both Twitter and FB were in Google's thoughts when they designed their product.
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@Jason Goldman agreed with you on all counts. Is what you're working on at Obvious been affected by the Plus rollout?
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@Jason Goldman There are a lot of smart people at Obvious. How do you force rank what to work on first?
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@Brian Norgard I hear ya. Glasses and watches are the canonical examples. Still think there is something there, but not quite. Good convo for another time ;)
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@Jason Lankow Goldman @Brian Norgard Norgard: Isn't the big + of Goolge+ the possibilities to share informationa- selected?
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@Jason Goldman can we think about how a mobile future beyond apps might work, an AI chosing what matters right now and displaying it on multiple screens/devices, lean back interfaces for content aggregation for example or pervasive UIs like the new Google paradigm across properties (and presumably other sites via Chrome or some kind of ads-based incentive program)
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@Tricia Salinero we're pretty consensus based by nature which means we tend to be more deliberative. But basically when we all get excited we know it's good.
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@Jason Goldman I'm based in DC, and while the DC tech and startup community is still small, it feels like it has a lot of momentum and excitement around it. What do you think about the potential for startups and entrepreneurship outside of the west coast, particularly in unexpected cities like DC?
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@Jason Goldman re: sharing perspectives. Twitter has gone part of the way there by connecting people. Next step is really embedding me in someone else's world. The virtual version of the body swap.
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@Alex Priest So I don't know about the DC scene but NYC is definitely legit. I think it took a while for them to get there and part of it is having more established folks like Tumblr, 4sq, and Etsy to serve as gravity for the talent. You need that critical mass.
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@Brian Norgard Well, we talk about twitter but it's not what we're working on day-to-day. And it doesn't quite feel like we won anything with Twitter yet either. I think there's a lot more for Twitter to do.
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@Jason Goldman Right. Is it difficult finding talent out west, given the HUGE critical mass that's there? I imagine there's a lot of competition to secure the talent out there. Are you looking elsewhere for untapped talent?
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@Jason Goldman I noticed you have 'company culture' listed as an expertise. What defines The Obvious Corp culture.
Re: Twitter I am sure they'll figure it out. Too many smart people not to. -
@Alex Priest In general, yes, it's very competitive here and we were amazed at the competitive offers folks were getting when we were hiring at Twitter. I think it may actually be a little easier at first with Obvious because we're back into the "people looking to start a company" rather than "people looking to join a company"
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@Jason Goldman At Obvious, are you attempting to go direct to social utility, or also considering projects that start with individual utility which may then be improved by social (e.g. Delicious, Flickr)?
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@Alex Priest I would imagine that after getting the 'band" back together that a lot of talent would literally give up dollars for a chance to work with the team.
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So Jason, what does talent really mean these days. As a grey beard in the valley I see more "spaghetti stick to the wall" methodology than deliberate product development. But then this may be the current state of app development which is different from software development
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@Jason Goldman Wired Mag had a feature once on new edu for the modern media world - do you think it's true that we need to adapt our communication for the tech we use? Or do you see it the other way around?
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@Brian Norgard Jokiness, the way things look matter and its worth spending more time to make something look good. It's ok to take a thoughtful deliberative approach. Be open and transparent about how you feel. Take the time to prioritize the people you work with. To be honest we're still in the process of defining our culture but those are things that matter.
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@Paul G. Richardson There's a reason for that. Bloated specs are a figment of the past. It just doesn't work that way anymore on the consumer Web.
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I don't disagree, but I wonder if there is a happier middle ground to be filled
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@Paul G. Richardson The new dichotomy is between CS type folk and hackery type folk. You need a mix.
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@Ian McAllister yeah - we're considering both approaches. I think the split you talk about is a good way of thinking about things.
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Well, thanks very much for having me and all the great questions. I really like Q&A so this was super fun for me.
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@Jason Goldman We have both on our team and it's really helpful to have a diversity of technical and product opinion.
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@Jason Goldman I hear a lot about your experience with Twitter, but not a lot about how you got into this whole game. What's your background? Can you give us the "origin story" a la Wolverine and Captain America?
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Sorry I'm late to the party but thanks for the invite! Namesake is very very cool!
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BTW: Bloated specs are gone, but there is a "searching problem" of find the best local solution, which may not be the best solution, nor the solution that crosses over to the larger population. So sometimes you need to do more dramatic things than just constantly iterate. After all, starting a new company is not an act of minor continual iteration. In fact, it is quite the opposite. It shouldn't be the only time that happens.
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No doubt Namesake is amazing. And I have special love for it being an LA startup!
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Sure! Email me and we can figure something out :)
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I see so much "lean" and "iterate" these days. All true stuff! But not to the exclusion of everything else.
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@Steven Roussey Constant attention to these two principles gives you a high school shot at delighting customers.
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Typical, I went away for 10 minutes and now it's all over! :-)
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@Brian Norgard Hi Brian, could you expand on the high school shot comment. Very interested to here your view point on how to delight customers.
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@Brian Norgard any plans to add the ability to have an ongoing schedule for topics or themes? Ex: every weds at 6:00pmPST, the conversation is centered around Twitter
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@Steve De Long All we're all looking for is a chance to create a differentiated experience. No one is owed anything even if you build it.
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I like the idea of ongoing schedule for topics problem is though being clear out here in the Pacific we are either asleep or everyone else is it seems LOL Maybe that's just an exucse no? LOL
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@Brian Norgard awesome- because i get a little pain in the right side of my head when I realize I missed a ridiculously awesome topic...not to say that I don't come in and always find great stuff, though
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What do you think?
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